How to Choose (Part 3): Faith Formation

Jim Jansen

Or maybe you just wanna. Give them a boost and improve them. You're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go. Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So this episode is part of a special series on how to choose a specific ministry for each of the steps on your clear path of discipleship. And today we're gonna zero in on the Faith for Nation step. So to get us started, a clear path of discipleship is just a framework designed to help people take their next step as disciples of Jesus.

It's your plan for making and maturing disciples. Parishes in ministries that have a clear path, know exactly how they connect with people, how they foster conversion, how they help people grow as disciples, and how they equip people for mission as missionary disciples. They have a context for the missionary disciples who are accompanying people to bring people. When they're ready to that spot in their spiritual journey where they can experience conversion or connection or be equipped for their mission. Now the concept is simple, but choosing a ministry to serve as one of the individual steps on your clear path, that takes some research and discernment, and that's why we're here today.

I have a great panel of coaches with me. We've got Jodi Phillips. Jodi, how you doing today?

Jodi Phillips 02:21

I am doing well.

Jim Jansen 02:22

Good. Uh, Whitney Bradley, how are you doing?

Whitney Bradley 02:24

Pretty good. How are you?

Jim Jansen 02:26

I am, I'm actually very good 'cause I'm with you guys. Uh, last but not

Whitney Bradley 02:30

well said. You well said.

Jim Jansen 02:31

Yeah. You're like right. Answer Jim. Uh, Andy Deka. Last but not least, Andy, how you doing?

Andy Dejka 02:36

Doing great. I'm excited to be here.

Jim Jansen 02:38

I am actually, we're really excited. I mean, we always like these conversations. I'm always excited, but I easily excited. Never heard a more true, say, easily excitable. I have, I have years and years of report cards that, that, that will verify that. But I'm, I'm super excited about this conversation in part, just thinking about your report. I know the report guide. I'm sorry. I said I'm really about this conversation because formation is one of those things. That, if I can be honest, we think we do well, but there is so much room for improvement, whether it's a particular ministry or whether it's a whole parish wide system.

This is gonna be, I think, a, a, I think a really, really helpful conversation for people. So we're gonna tee it up here. Andy, get us started. Give us just a simple overview. What is faith formation? What, what are those ministries designed to do?

Andy Dejka 03:32

Yeah, so it does help to start with kinda a basic definition. What we've been leaning into is faith formation includes ministries that are designed to support disciples as they grow in the knowledge and habits of the Christian life. And it's really important the knowledge and the habits together, not just an intellectual thing. Right. There's a living part of this. Yeah. And one of the quotes that. Really sticks out for me as, as being helpful in this space, is that it is from Frank Sheed. He says, love seeks knowledge in order to increase love. Right. So, so, wow. That's love's awesome love seeks knowledge in order to increase love. So it's, it's flowing out of an initial conversion that I have.

Right. A relationship with Jesus. Mm-hmm. I fall in love with Jesus and that leads me to want to understand who he is. More deeply, but not just to stay there. It's for the sake of loving him better and loving my neighbor better. That's really the purpose of faith formation.

Jim Jansen 04:27

Man, that that is huge. I mean, that actually highlights one of the things, this faith formation kind of, it assumes that people are disciples. You know, and well, not necessarily that they're like saints, but that they have met Jesus and they love him and they, they want to know more about him. And I mean, in some ways, like one of the biggest frustrations for those of us, and I've been there, you know, hundreds of times when I'm trying to offer faith formation for someone.

I'm trying to catechize someone, I'm trying to tell them about Jesus. And they either don't show up or they just don't care. Because they haven't really met him. Mm-hmm. Or if they have that, that love has kind of grown cold. This works best for people who want it.

Andy Dejka 05:11

Right. So in terms of the thresholds, we're looking at the threshold of decision and beginning disciple. Yeah. That's how you really know that someone is, is ready for, um, a deeper catechesis. Right. They have that initial conversion and relationship with Jesus. And we could talk about some of the characteristics.

Jim Jansen 05:26

Yeah, that'd be great. But these are people, like they're asking for it, right? I mean, even if they're not maybe explicitly asking for it, although sometimes they do. Mm-hmm. They're just like, they, they want it. Okay. Give us the characteristics, like what are, what are some characteristics of faith formation?

Andy Dejka 05:41

Yeah, so the first one we kind of touched on already, but it's a transformation, right? You're not just trying to. Transfer information to someone, but really to cause a transformation of life. And so it's, it's the alignment of theory and practice, right? So. People are building concrete habits of life, um, not just gaining a bunch of intellectual information. So, um, practically that would mean like not just learning about different types of prayer, but actually learning how to pray. Right.

Jim Jansen 06:08

Crazy. Well, or like, we're not just studying about the Eucharist, but it is, it's taking that, that study is taking shape in participation in the liturgy, in adoration or whatever.

Andy Dejka 06:22

And so four of the main habits that we would wanna focus on is prayer, compassion, friendship, and invitation. So as far as a, a, a transformation of life, those would be kind of four areas that we'd focus on. We can maybe hit on those more as we, as we get into this. Sure. Okay. But another main characteristic is. The hierarchy of truths and really respecting a hierarchy of truths. And so what that means is that just there's more, there's some truths that are more central to my salvation and my Christian life than others.

So if I think about. The importance of the Eucharist, right? Mm-hmm. The Eucharist is so central because it's really the application of the Paschal mystery directly upon my person. Like in my life. Yeah. In, in my life. And so that's in my body. Yeah. That's, that's a truth that we want everybody to understand, right. Um, as they're beginning their walk of, of discipleship, whereas there are. Nuances in all kinds of other church teachings. If you think about, you know, the church has something to say about genetic engineering, right? Yeah. But that's not as central to my salvation as

Jim Jansen 07:24

Yeah, unless you're a genetic engineer.

Andy Dejka 07:25

Exactly.

Jim Jansen 07:26

Right.

Andy Dejka 07:26

And it's very relevant.

Jim Jansen 07:27

If you are like, I don't know where to point you to, but there's good stuff. There's actually really good stuff. We could look it up and help you. Yeah, we can find it. Yeah. Andy, this is really, really helpful just because the hierarchy of truth, like there is no end to what you can learn. About your faith as a Catholic. And that was true, you know, like centuries ago. But now like, well, the internet, like, I mean, you could binge watch. It's overwhelming. Yeah, you could binge watch awesome Catholic content from now until when Jesus comes back. But there's just some things that are more important for you based off just the hierarchy of truths for salvation, your state and life, et cetera, et cetera.

Andy Dejka 08:06

Mm-hmm. So we have to really pay attention to those as pastoral leaders. How are we helping people to focus on the most important. Truths for their salvation. I'd point to another characteristic, um, that's important for faith formation, which is accompaniment. And I think we can just learn from St. Paul in this. He says, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Mm-hmm. Right? We need people who are modeling the faith for us so we can actually see what it, what it looks like when it's lived out. Um, we, we need those examples. You think about a soccer coach, right, who will demonstrate, um, a particular skill before allowing the, the kids to demonstrate, oh, my love language.

Or, or why you need somebody to, you know, watch your golf swing because you can't see how you're approaching it yourself. You actually need someone to.

Jodi Phillips 08:52

Unless you don't actually wanna be better at golf.

Andy Dejka 08:54

Unless you don't wanna be better. Sure. Yeah.

Jim Jansen 08:56

No, but this is, this is huge because I mean, we're gonna talk about. Ways faith formation takes shape in terms of how it's delivered, but whatever form it takes, whether it's like a class or a small group or a video or whatever, you gotta have another person who's with you, who's helping you to apply it and translate it to your life. That's huge. Andy, it, maybe this is maybe obvious, but it's probably worth saying, what's the content of faith formation?

What are we actually talking about?

Andy Dejka 09:30

Yeah. I think the great place to start is looking at the catechism, right? And the catechism outlines the most important things, um, in, in the creed, right? What do we believe in the sacraments? Mm-hmm. How do, how do we, um, have a sacramental life, the moral life. It's, it's how do we live as, as Christians, and then prayer. Um, so if we're focusing on kind of those four areas, that's gonna give us the main essential content.

Jim Jansen 09:54

Yeah. Which is, I don't know the history on this, but that's a new, like the fourth pillar of the catechism prayer. That's new. I think the catechism came out in the nineties. Yeah. Well, I mean, okay. So new from a church history perspective that, you know, that the church saw fit for, you know, for our latest catechism. Uh, now. Whatever, 30 years old, almost a generation, to really, to make sure that prayer was like part of catechesis and I, my pet peeve is, I think we often leave this part out. We teach all the stuff about the sacraments, but we don't teach prayer and we teach all of the stuff of moral life, but we don't teach how to have a conversation with the person who empowers us to live the moral life, who, who gave us the example.

So anyway. Here's the, uh, here's the, here's the hard question for Whitney. Uh, no, I'm just, what does this look like practically? Right? What are some of the ministries and programs that parishes or a particular ministry like a youth ministry might use to provide faith formation?

Whitney Bradley 10:56

I really just kind of break it down into two categories. There's large groups and they're small groups. We have a few examples of this. This would be, um, widely known, you know, like, uh, that man is you. Uh, we also have a parish that has a women's version called Women of Grace. Mm-hmm. Uh, the Discovering Christ Series. The Christ Life Series, sorry, has, uh, following Christ and these large group communities can be a really good space.

Or a type of program that you can fit in the faith formation space. But ultimately we find that most of our parishes use small groups.

Jim Jansen 11:30

Well, and you know, even as you're talking, my experience, I've never been part of Women of Grace, but I have been a part of that man as you, and they're small groups that are built into that man as you.

Whitney Bradley 11:40

Mm-hmm.

Jim Jansen 11:40

Right. You, you watch the video with all the guys, you know, sleepy, you get your coffee and your bagel all. But then you break off into small groups and you begin to digest it. So even in the large group format, right, the small groups are kind of hidden.

Whitney Bradley 11:51

It's because the reality is that if you, just what Andy was saying about accompaniment, and you really can't do accompaniment well if you don't break it down into small groups, like if I'm a missionary disciple trying to accompany someone in faith formation realm. I need a space to get to know a few people really well. Mm-hmm. Even if I'm in a large group. So it's really hard to actually do faith formation without some sort of small group presence. Mm-hmm. And then from there, you know, large group, small group. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter what material. You pick.

'cause there's, like you were saying, a myriad of materials out there. You could go to form, you can go find what Bishop Baron's doing lately. You know the chosen series if you want.

Jim Jansen 12:37

Yeah. There's just, there really is no end.

Whitney Bradley 12:39

Yeah. So it, it, there really, you can use almost anything in that faith formation step. What you need to consider is that it has to move people from this step on the clear path to the next.

Jim Jansen 12:52

Yeah. Thank you for saying that because it feels like. Implicitly, and maybe some people, it's explicit, but like our criteria for success is. Are they coming? Mm-hmm. Or are they still coming? Mm-hmm. Right. Like, how's your faith formation going? It's like we had 30 people and we still have 30 people, and this week we got 35.

Whitney Bradley 13:10

But if that's your criteria for success, which, and I sometimes all we can do is count the numbers. So I'm not blaming anyone. Like I count numbers a lot. I'm the person on the team who counts the numbers more than anybody else. But if, if that's our final goal, then all we produce is consumer Catholics. We don't. We don't produce growing disciples.

Jim Jansen 13:29

Yeah. This is so what's the real, what's the real criteria of success? We don't want people just camping out forever or only learning and not experiencing transformation. What's like, what does success look like?

Whitney Bradley 13:43

That's a good question.

Jim Jansen 13:45

Team...?

Jodi Phillips 13:45

I think that the, that they're, they have increased in the heart and habits of a disciple that Andy mentioned, which, and particularly as those habits have grown, prayer, compassion, friendship, and, and then invitation, right? So to some degree you actually wanna see people leaving your faith formation because they have begun.

Whitney Bradley 14:05

They start their own apostlates. They do. Yeah.

Jodi Phillips 14:07

They're like, I wanna be formed now in the next space in evangelization formation, because now I have a burning passion. Mm-hmm. For other people I to experience what I experience

Whitney Bradley 14:16

That's, I was thinking.

Andy Dejka 14:16

Awakening of mission.

Jodi Phillips 14:17

Yeah.

Whitney Bradley 14:18

The, the best criteria for success is. They go on mission. Yeah. It's like.

Jim Jansen 14:22

And it's not like they're stopping learning, right? I mean, I think we would all affirm that, like continuing to learn. It's a lifelong endeavor, but it might be seasonal. You know, it might be this time like, Hey, you know, I'm, I don't need this class or this, you know, catechetical small group anymore. What I need is something to equip me for the call that God is like. It's burning in my life precisely because of what I experienced in this faith formation. I can't not go out now. Yep. So, Jodi, you're kind of on a roll here. Uh, what do people need to keep in mind as they discern different options?

Because this is different. There's some parts of the clear path where it's like, well, there's just not a lot of options built up here. And the discernment is a little bit more about like, how might we do this here? There's a plethora of, of options, or at least content, you know, delivery vehicles, small group materials, online portals, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's all this stuff. How do you discern. Faith formation well?

Jodi Phillips 15:21

You know, I wanna talk a little bit more about these options that Whitney described and like really what differentiates them and, and what you just have to keep in mind. So when I think about the large group model in particular, I. It can be really efficient. Right. And, and I think we see parishes that are, like, everyone in the parish needs to know this, so it might be that men is you or a woman of grace, but it might be the Bible timeline in a year. Or maybe they're doing parish missions or different opportunities, class on prayer, whatever, class on prayer. Um, so this can be really efficient, but often we find that fits again in that kind of, that information overload, not

Jim Jansen 15:56

mm-hmm.

Jodi Phillips 15:57

Um, a transformation of character. It's really hard to accompany people in a large group. Very, very difficult to do so. And often it falls into, you know, kind of an old model of the classroom where I am just learning. So it's like it becomes isolated. My, the information I'm learning is isolated from my experience. I'd like, actually, Andy, if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit, you had, I think in your own personal experience, a really like different experience when you were in college.

Andy Dejka 16:28

Yeah, I think. When I was in college, that was the first time where I experienced some authentic faith formation. You know, I went to re my whole childhood, but I think what I experienced there was kind of a dissociation of the content of faith and the life of faith. Mm-hmm. You know, what I was learning, I had no idea how to apply it or how it really impacted my life. But when I got to college, um, I was, I was hungry. I was at a point where I was really seeking and I was in, you know, like three different Bible studies at the same time.

Jodi Phillips 16:58

Didn't you join a fourth?

Andy Dejka 16:59

Probably with FOCUS. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Jansen 17:02

Well and one, that one that was a class. Yeah. Right. Which is funny. I mean, 'cause I got got to know you during this time and. The class might've been the least effective. 'cause I didn't have the capacity. 'cause there were, Jim was teaching the class. 30 other students by the way. Yeah. I like, I didn't have the capacity except for once or twice to have a conversation and go for a walk. Mm-hmm. With you. 'cause I had 40 other 30 other people I was attending to.

Andy Dejka 17:25

Right. What, and I think what was really beautiful about some of these small group experiences was, um, it was, you know, the first time I was actually with another group of guys that were bringing real challenges from their life, I. And we would open up the scriptures and, you know, what does the book of James have to say about what we're experiencing right now? And we'd actually be praying for each other and, and supporting each other and living out whatever I. Resolutions were coming out of that small group. And so it was really, it was a union of like the content of faith that we were learning and our lives.

Jim Jansen 17:58

Yeah. You know, as, as you guys talk, I think, I think there is another benefit to the large group formation. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's a two-edged sword, and that is if you have a really gifted teacher. Let's say it's the pastor or the associate or any anyway, a well-formed lay person, letting that person exercise the charism of teaching is awesome. But there can be a a, a two-edged sword with that. You know, if the young associate is so good that everybody who experiences his charism for teaching and his gift, they could easily conclude, well, there's no way I'm doing that 'cause. Father's awesome and, and suddenly the very natural inorganic sharing of faith, uh, the accompaniment of one person to another of faith could get stunted.

If people think that that's the only way that it happens, you know, you have to have this amazing charism for teaching. I think it would take, we're all fans of charisms, but this is not faith formation, can't be reliant upon a preaching teaching charism only.

Whitney Bradley 19:10

Not the step of the clear path I have, I guess I'm just, I've seen some parishes identify like a real gap that generally the entire parish has in their formation. Yes. Uh, and then, like you were saying, Jodi do a something, but it's not a forever large group Answer it. It's often like their parish mission for, or it's, it's seasonal, right? A seasonal thing. Yeah. They'll kind of attack a. A particular thing for a season to help the full compare. They fill a communal gap.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Jansen 19:42

Which, which also fosters unity.

Whitney Bradley 19:44

But it also can't be a step on the clear path because that's not a forever answer. Yeah. Not that, you know, programs on any of these steps can't change, but it really is meant to be just for a season.

Jodi Phillips 19:54

Yeah. And, and what we're noticing when it's really successful is that it's also very hands-on and, and very experiential and again, accompaniment driven. Right. So it's not, okay. We invited someone to just talk at you. Right, right. No, we want to engage you because like, because we want to form you, right? Mm-hmm. I think right. Implicit, explicit actually is faith formation, right? Well, we're forming you.

Jim Jansen 20:20

And you know, even when we talk about experiences like big conferences where you hear this like All star, amazing, you know, top 1% gifted speakers, those talks really only bear fruit when like an hour or so later somebody's like. So what do you think?

Jodi Phillips 20:37

Yeah. And you're having a conversation. The Steubenville Youth Conference is, I think the prime example of that is, is built around the assumption and, and then the content is built around small groups and the materials and the groups that are coming. Five to six people in a group and walking with each other through the whole conference. Yes. Yeah. And that's where you see the most fruit.

Jim Jansen 20:58

Yeah. Jodi, let's talk more about those small groups. 'cause we talk about 'em a lot, but there's some very specific characteristics that make them helpful.

Jodi Phillips 21:05

Yeah. I mean, they allow for flexibility for schedules, for locations, for times. Right. And, and, and I think one of the beautiful things about small groups is they can also be flexible based on where people are at. Right? Like, I'm still in a small group. I, I'd like to think that I'm a missionary disciple.

Jim Jansen 21:22

Can we just, can we vote on that real quick?

Jodi Phillips 21:24

Whitney just made it face, she's like, I don't know.

Whitney Bradley 21:26

I think Jodi's a missionary disciple.

Jim Jansen 21:28

Mostly.

Whitney Bradley 21:28

I was like, I can't believe you're doubting that.

Jodi Phillips 21:31

I, I'm fairly certain. But I still as, as Jim mentioned, I'm still being formed in my faith. And, and I still need friends that are on mission with me. Mm-hmm. But are also kind of smoothing out the edges with me. So small groups can be very flexible also in the people who are within them.

Whitney Bradley 21:47

Because come to find out, it doesn't necessarily actually ever get easier to be a Christian. Like the devil's...

Jim Jansen 21:54

spoiler alert

Whitney Bradley 21:55

always gonna be attacking me in some way.

Jim Jansen 21:56

Sorry folks.

Whitney Bradley 21:57

And so to have other people around me who want the things that I want, even if I'm the most fruitful disciple that's ever been on this planet, I still need the community to encourage me and move me forward, so.

Jodi Phillips 22:08

Yep.

Jim Jansen 22:09

Yeah.

Jodi Phillips 22:09

So, so yeah, they're flexible in kind of every way. Mm-hmm. And as, as Whitney has already mentioned, there's kind of untold amounts of different materials you can use, although I think that the best materials when it is specifically in the faith formation space. Are going to be those materials that are really, again, focusing on like how are we forming you, transforming you, the hierarchy of truths and helping to build you in those kind of hearts and habits of a disciple. I think one thing that I've noticed that just to bear in mind is that within small groups in the faith formation space, it is gonna require something of the facilitator.

You know, there's kind of, there's small groups that have a really easy entry point. Like if you've ever done live and together, you've ever done those, that's a really easy entry point. We're, we've got all of the materials kind of take it off the shelf and run the thing. Mm-hmm. Like maybe make your space nice, um, and have some snacks. Right. But it's pretty easy. But when we're really. Forming people in the faith. We might need to know something about the faith. We might need to look through the materials. Yeah. And just be prepared to answer some questions. It's okay if we don't know how all the answers, we can come back later.

Jim Jansen 23:19

But you should know where the answers are.

Jodi Phillips 23:21

Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Jansen 23:21

Right. So I'm thinking like, okay, if somebody is going to be facilitating a small group. That is downloading some of the content on the moral life. Mm-hmm. You probably need to be living a moral life. You and, and if you don't know, don't. Yeah. And if you, okay. Do we all agree on that? Yeah. But like, and not only do you need to be living it. You don't have to know every answer perfectly. You know, it's like, oh man, uh, yeah, let me, can I get back to you? Get back to you on that genetic engineering question. But I know where to look. I, I know how to use the catechism. I, I have a lifeline like, Hey, father, you know, like, just, or who to ask. Yeah. Yeah.

You just can have a, a good sense of discernment about the trustworthy sources. You know, again, you don't have to be a saint, you don't have to have a master's, but there is some level of maturity that is required.

Jodi Phillips 24:09

Yeah. And I think there's a critical success factor. And that, I think can be pretty shaky, I'll be honest in, in a number of places right now. Mm-hmm. And it's a structure of support for your small group leaders? Mm-hmm. Yes, please talk about that. That's huge. Yeah, so I think this is like coaching your small group leaders one. So if they don't know all the answers, you are helping them find the answers. So you're helping them identify the people in their group and pray for them and with them mm-hmm.

For the people in their groups. And you're helping them to become better, stronger, small group leaders and not burn out.

Whitney Bradley 24:41

Help them to notice. Yeah. Like notice their people, notice their needs and notice what the Holy Spirit is asking you as a leader to do, to help them.

Jim Jansen 24:50

Yeah. That, that's the word. Noticing.

Jodi Phillips 24:52

Noticing. Yeah. And now I. I think, I think this is something that is growing in a lot of our parishes, but I think the place to start is small. We're gonna say this for every step of the clear path as you start small. Oh, I can only personally accompany three small group leaders. Okay. Start with personally accompanying three small group leaders. Coach them, support them, and over time maybe say like, you know what, Whitney, over here, I think she might have the gifts to also coach some small group leaders. Mm-hmm. Turns out she's got a couple people in her small group that she's noticing could lead some small group leaders, could be small group leaders.

Yeah. I'm gonna ask her to make that invitation of them and to coach them.

Jim Jansen 25:31

Yeah. And I'm gonna pray with her and for her. Yeah, for those members. And just to make it tangible here, like we're talking about. If you're supporting a small group facilitator, we're talking about like a 30, 40 minute conversation. I dunno. Every other week. Yeah. Pretty regular. You know, once a month. Yeah. Once a month maybe. They're like, Hey Whitney, how's your group going? So, I mean, none of this is like a crazy thing, but those simple conversations. How's your group going? Last time we, you know, you said Sarah was, was not coming. We prayed for Sarah.

Anything happening there? You just, it's following up. Yeah. On, on the, the noticing and helping to foster that.

Jodi Phillips 26:09

Andy keeps talking too much in the group. How's that going?

Andy Dejka 26:12

That is always my problem.

Whitney Bradley 26:14

Andy... classic.

Jim Jansen 26:17

Yeah. Why? Why he is in Whitney's Bible study. I'm not sure. No, just kidding.

Jodi Phillips 26:22

I just, one other thing that I think sometimes we use in our parishes as potentially a stop gap is like, again, there's like so many resources available. I think of form.org. Mm-hmm. Or I think of just like any of the in a year podcasts, you know, the Bible in a year, the catechism in the year, the rosary in a year. And now just all of the spinoffs. 'cause maybe I'll just do the Jodi in a year podcast. I don't know.

Whitney Bradley 26:45

We were telling her at lunch she should do, yeah. Another cat Limited material. Yeah.

Jodi Phillips 26:50

Yeah. That's maybe a heretical one. But those are incredible resources and, and I think we should continue to encourage people to, to pay attention to them. And to take them like for their personal formation and for prayer. But if they're not listening to those things in community mm-hmm. It's again, just another source of information. We're just giving them resources. Right. I, I, now, I know of a lot of people that they're like, oh, I went through the Bible in a year with this group of people and we texted each other every day to talk about what was standing out to each other. You know, so there's like.

Jim Jansen 27:23

Yeah, that's, I mean, that's way better. That's great. Yeah.

Jodi Phillips 27:25

So there's ways to facilitate some community around these things. So that people continue to say like, okay, and what stood out to you? Like, how is this changing your life? Rather than it just being a thing that I'm con again, just consuming. Yeah, because podcasts in particular, you can just drown yourself in noise. Like this one. Although we are a fan of podcasts. Yeah. Sorry, as I'm recording, I didn't even think of.

Jim Jansen 27:50

No, I know, but I mean, Jodi, that's really, really helpful because there's. We live in a consumeristic culture, certainly here, you know, in the United States, most of the western world. And Paul warns like really aggressively about, you know, getting puffed up with knowledge and not having it bear fruit in love, love of God, and love of neighbor.

Whitney Bradley 28:11

I was thinking about that. As we were preparing truth without love. Yeah. Is a clinging gong.

Jim Jansen 28:17

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, yeah, I mean the, the scriptures have very strong words about this, and we just have to be honest. Nobody who's been in pastoral ministry very long. You like, you've seen it, right? You've seen those people. They're great, but there's something, there's something missing. Despite the fact that they've been faithfully learning and learning and learning and learning it, there's something missing because they haven't. Begun to share. It hasn't transformed them. I, I just would, maybe before we move on for this, Jodi, you mentioned the importance of the structures and the support systems for, uh, small groups.

So it can be a movement that is thriving and growing. We love the work of Michael Hall on this, of Catholic Christian outreach. We've recorded a bunch of podcasts with him. If you go to the website, quip dot arch omaha.org, you can also find a whole workshop that he did for us on creating this structure and how you support him. Just thought we should give a shout out for Michael because his work has been really helpful. He gives a a an awesome mental model on how you can structure just a simple support system so that your small groups flourish and don't kind of get stagnant or. Fade away.

Whitney Bradley 29:27

And for those of you who are in our diocese, he's coming back this fall. Oh yeah. So there's another workshop with him that you are free come to. Can't get enough of our Canadian friends. Yeah.

Jim Jansen 29:38

Okay. Whitney, this building, right, building a faith formation step on the clear path. It tends to be one of the secondary steps. On, on a clear path. You know, people often start with a conversion moment. This is sometimes, you know, a second or third step, depending. Why is that?

Whitney Bradley 29:55

Yeah, so just practice practically speaking, I. As has already been mentioned, this is the space in our Catholic churches that we have the most stuff, the most programs already going on.

Jodi Phillips 30:09

Mm-hmm.

Whitney Bradley 30:09

And even if you've been listening to this podcast and you're like, but all those programs don't match what you're saying. Well, they often fill a stop gap. They, they fill the space. They give a something for people who are coming out of your conversion moment to participate in. Mm-hmm. So that you can focus on some other areas that might need a little more help when it comes to changing the culture, especially building up your missionary disciples to go on mission.

So practically speaking, it's just 'cause we already have a lot and it can, it can hold down the fort for a little bit.

Jim Jansen 30:42

Mm-hmm. And it can be, I mean, it's, that's maybe another conversation, but it, it, if you have too much stuff, just an overload of faith formation. Offerings that actually can be a problem. You, you're starting to lose clarity in the clear path. You're starting to perhaps lose unity. It's harder to shepherd and make sure that those things are healthy so that people are moving and growing in habits and in love. And if you have too much stuff, it can be a problem.

Whitney Bradley 31:12

You're also making me think of, you know, I, I have a family of parishes that I work with that has almost. Well, they literally, besides what they have started up for the clear path, they have no parish ministries outside of like alter societies, things that help start the mass up.

Jodi Phillips 31:29

Mm-hmm.

Whitney Bradley 31:30

And they're still going in the order of conversion moment evangelization formation then faith formation. And in fact, their people are clamoring for faith formation. But the reason that they're not, uh, attacking faith formation first is because. They're the ones who give me this word, consumer Catholic.

Jim Jansen 31:48

Mm-hmm.

Whitney Bradley 31:48

Because that what they notice is when, when we go straight from, from like an alpha into just learning about my faith. Unfortunately, what often happens more often than not is. What we've just been warning against is that you can learn a whole lot of truths, but not connect it to your actual life or to loving Jesus more.

Jim Jansen 32:15

Yeah.

Whitney Bradley 32:15

And so if we skip that step and we go straight to evangelization formation and we form them for mission, they actually, as they go on mission, they learn to love Jesus and rely on Jesus. And they go to a place that's deeper than we could have imagined.

Jim Jansen 32:31

Mm-hmm.

Whitney Bradley 32:32

And then we can kind of circle back and. And reteach them some things that maybe they were lacking.

Jim Jansen 32:37

No, I mean, that is, I think you're exactly right, but that's, that's kind of controversial, right? Or at least it's not the way we've been living. Uh, I'm, I'm reminded of one of Pope Francis' quotes from the Joy of the Gospel, where he talks about, you know, lengthy formation isn't necessary for those who've had an encounter with a living Christ to go out and share him. I mean, I, I agree with him. I think he's, I think he's right. But it's clearly not our typical practice.

Sometimes there's this, oh man, we just, you, you got Nope. You get, we're gonna go through the whole catechism and we're gonna go through everything and you're gonna, ma, you're gonna get a almost a, a full master's before it's safe for you to go introduce a friend.

Whitney Bradley 33:21

Then you won't make any mistakes.

Jim Jansen 33:21

To Jesus.

Whitney Bradley 33:22

And you won't.

Jim Jansen 33:23

Right? Yeah.

Whitney Bradley 33:23

You can say like, suddenly you, you won't say anything heretical, which.

Jim Jansen 33:26

Oh my gosh. That's awesome.

Whitney Bradley 33:27

I think we probably do everything on that.

Jim Jansen 33:30

You might have actually accidentally last podcast.

Andy Dejka 33:30

I think, Whitney, what you were also highlighting there is just that the, we need to increase the accompaniment capacity of our

Whitney Bradley 33:36

Oh yes.

Andy Dejka 33:37

Parish, in order to really renew the faith formation system.

Jim Jansen 33:39

Right. Because who delivers faith formation, but But a missionary disciple. Mm-hmm. Like someone with the heart of like, of a missionary. They're the ones who can effectively do it. And if you don't have those folks, you have to build up or you can't deliver faith formation except for maybe a stopgap where you're using a podcast or an online thing like Jodi mentioned.

Whitney Bradley 33:59

Well, and there's no culture. Well, I can think of one, only one culture in all of history has been converted first by the Bible. Usually, conversion happens through another person bringing the person of Jesus to a new group of people.

Jim Jansen 34:17

St. Patrick, St. Bonaventure or uh, St. Boniface.

Whitney Bradley 34:20

Yes, exactly. Uh, so we, we've gotta start with that missionary mindset and then we can teach people the things.

Jim Jansen 34:28

There are, I mean, for those of you who are hearing this and it's like kind of pinging something in you, this is, maybe you're a, maybe you're a natural teacher and this is hard. We'd love to continue the conversation so you can, you know, you can respond back at the, the chat, uh, quip arch omaha.org. We'd love, we'd love to continue this. 'cause this is, I mean, this is a conviction in us born of experience, having done it the wrong way and, and learned the hard way and accidentally created a consumer culture, um, having seen it done the right way. So we'd love to continue the conversation here. I just wanna throw this out for all of you.

This is, again, none of this is theory for us. We, we've, we've seen this, we've done this. Many of us have had our lives changed by a fruitful faith formation. We've seen it flourish and we've seen it struggle. I. What are the secrets to success?

Whitney Bradley 35:16

Have we talked about the need for it to be kerygmatic yet?

Jodi Phillips 35:19

No.

Whitney Bradley 35:20

Because if we haven't, Jodi, I think you should take that.

Jim Jansen 35:22

Oh, that's a, that's a good one.

Jodi Phillips 35:23

It's a good one. Yeah. I feel just really passionate about this actually. I think. We often assume in kind of every stage of faith formation, that if the people are coming, that they must be disciples. So we talked about this really early on. We're like they, they want this. They're disciples. We're assuming they're disciples. And yes, and also guess what? We are still gonna get people who are not disciples who are coming to our faith formation because they just always have. Or because when they're younger because someone made them or because their spouse drags them along, or because they're friends.

Jim Jansen 35:58

Well, there's a, there's a curiosity.

Jodi Phillips 36:00

Yep.

Jim Jansen 36:00

But it, but curiosity isn't the same thing as, as faith, as love, right. Or faith flowing from a decision.

Jodi Phillips 36:06

Or, or, because in some of our parishes, we still don't have a conversion moment and this is what's available.

Jim Jansen 36:11

Or, or, I am a disciple. But it's just been a long time. Yeah. Since I've had a, a, a meaningful connection with the Lord. Had a moment.

Jodi Phillips 36:19

So there's, um, there's this quote in Po St. John Paul ii Catechesi Trente, which is about catechesis in the modern world. I. And he talks about this, that even adults, like they right the temptations to doubt or abound abandon your faith. So I just wanna read this quote. He says, this means that catechesis or teaching of the faith must often concern itself, not only with nourishing and teaching the faith, but also with arousing it and ceasing with the help of grace, with opening the heart, with converting and with preparing. Total adherence to Jesus Christ on the part of those who are still on the threshold of faith.

And I think Pope Francis really. Advance this in this idea mm-hmm. Of matic catechesis, right? Yeah. All of our formation of in, in the faith is centralized on the proclamation of the gospel. And if you think about this, like in really any setting, like I'm just always preaching the gospel because I. Anything, whether I am in the most nerdy scripture study of all time, like it's all about the fact that the Lord loves us so much to enter into history and save us. Mm-hmm.

Jim Jansen 37:28

That's what it's about. A broken history.

Jodi Phillips 37:29

A broken history. Right.

Jim Jansen 37:30

My broken life. Yeah.

Jodi Phillips 37:31

And your, your best facilitator of a small group knows how to take that, whether it's someone in the small group who's really doubting or. As perhaps some of us have experienced or maybe been the person in the small group who's like, but did you know that it was actually light when God showed Abraham the Stars? Right. Like, you know, those moments of like, did you know, and, and you can say like, yeah, what does that show us about a God who loves us and desires to save us?

Mm-hmm. So being able to really help people to encounter the Lord in all mo moments of faith formation is like the critical success factor. Of all faith formation.

Andy Dejka 38:10

That's huge. Yeah. That's so good, Jodi.

Whitney Bradley 38:12

Because if we're not meeting Jesus, what are we doing? Sorry, I think I'll get that in once an episode.

Andy Dejka 38:17

Well, no, I, I, and I love, I mean, I, both of us have led OCIA Yeah. Previously, and I think there's, that's really at the heart of what we're trying to do, uh, with any of the topics that that come up, whether we're talking about, you know, Mary and the Saints or any of the sacraments. It's all. It all points back to how is this an expression of Jesus' love for us? Right. That's what we're trying to do in, in Catechesis point, people back to the, the most central thing.

Jodi Phillips 38:40

Right? Yeah. You think about, like Saint Augustine, when he says that the new, the New Testament is hidden in the old, and the Old Testament is made, present is is fulfilled in the new, what's he's actually saying is like, it's all about the gospel, right?

Andy Dejka 38:54

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jodi Phillips 38:54

It's all pointing to the gospel. Mm-hmm. Or, and like the gospel fulfilled. That's what it is.

Andy Dejka 38:59

One of my favorite. Sayings from St. Augustine too is that when, when he was asked about what the proper interpretation of scripture is, it's Well, whatever leads to charity. Yeah. Right. Which is something that our modern sensibility to gr against us us. Right? That's because we wanna nail it down. Well, what's the right interpretation? We said whatever leads to charity. That's fantastic.

Jim Jansen 39:18

I'm gonna go there, but I, I actually, I feel like there's really something really important that we just have not addressed yet, and that is we're talking about. Choosing a faith formation option, and probably a better word than, than choosing is discerning. How do you discern and, and I'm thinking both like, you know, go after that from like, how do you actually, like, what are the mechanisms for discerning discernment, rosary, whatever, and like what are the things that you have to remember and keep top of mind as you discern?

Whitney Bradley 39:49

What comes to mind for me first is. I think you need to always go back to your missionary disciples and see what they're asking for and grow from there. Or see what the people they're accompanying are.

Jim Jansen 40:02

Yeah, yeah. Like if you're, if the people they're accompanying are super excited about Bible in a year, I. That might, that might be a really helpful tool that already has momentum. The, the spirit already seems to be using it. If the people, you're, you know, who your key leaders already have form.org, swag and they're just totally into it. Like, well, just don't find it. Go to that. I don't think they do. Well, I mean they might, I dunno. But that's a, they could send us some though.

Whitney Bradley 40:23

This is a very real example 'cause that parish I was, or that family of parishes I was bringing up earlier, like, they're not ready. For the faith formation step, as I was saying. But it keeps coming up with the evangelization coordinator that her people just want to do chosen the chosen series. Mm-hmm. And so she's like, should I just give in, father? Should I just do it? And he's like, no, 'cause you need to focus on what's primary. But what I'm seeing as someone who gets to be on the outside and see a lot of these things is when they're ready for small groups, they're probably just gonna use the chosen.

Jim Jansen 40:52

Right. Although I'm just. I love that, but to me what sticks out as you tell that story is the conviction that they have, that they're not ready. 'cause there's a real discernment. Yeah. You can just talk, I dunno if one of you wants to talk about the discernment rosary. 'cause that's a just, there's a lot of ways for individuals and groups to discern, but that's a really helpful tool where when you do it, you actually know, you've discerned and so you come away with a little bit of a holy stubbornness to say, no, we're, we're gonna do what Jesus told us.

Andy Dejka 41:24

Yeah. So we really found that tool helpful, both in our own discernment as a diocesan team, but then, um, in helping other parishes, um, to discern. All kinds of things. Um, strategic next steps or, you know, uh, yeah, steps of their clear path. But essentially what you're doing is using the rosary, but instead of, um, a mystery, you're asking a question, asking Jesus a question, praying the decade of the rosary with that question in mind.

Taking a moment of silence at the end of the decade, um, listening to the Lord for whatever he brings up in, in your heart. Related to that, that question. And then taking a moment of sharing, um, of listening to everyone who's gathered express what, what they're hearing from the Lord. Right? And you're trying to notice what are the common themes that the Lord is drawing to our attention. And so we found that to be just yeah. A, a really fruitful way of, of listening to what Jesus wants. Around a particular situation.

Jim Jansen 42:19

Yeah. I mean, he actually speaks when we ask him crazy.

Whitney Bradley 42:22

Something I wanna make explicit that was implicit in Andy's description there though, is you're not doing this discernment rosary by yourself. Yes. A discernment rosary is meant to be done in the context of the body, and so you need to bring together your pastor and other leaders to pray and hear. The Lord's voice together.

Jim Jansen 42:43

Well, and that's also another element of faith formation that, that we may be, I don't know where we would put it, but that it's actually best done as a team, right? So there's a team that's like the faith formation team that's discerning together, that's, you know, gathering resources, maybe doing some really basic equipping for the, for facilitators, but also if you're leading a small group. It's you and like a wingman. Mm-hmm. Right? That there's a pair, and if you're teaching a class, it's really helpful to have somebody else who's helping, you know, just, just.

You never have to, Jesus sends 'em out two by two. You really shouldn't ever do this alone.

Whitney Bradley 43:19

Mm-hmm. I mean, if Jesus did it.

Jodi Phillips 43:20

Yeah. I think he, the other thing.

Jim Jansen 43:23

He was surrounded by 12 guys, not necessarily the best. Anyway.

Jodi Phillips 43:28

I think the other thing you're asking the Lord to is just like who? Who's around to help. Do it you meant, so it's the team, right? Who are our leaders? Yeah. Who are the leaders? So I mentioned this, right, in that structure, like you can only start as many small groups as you have leaders to start them. Mm-hmm. In capacity. Well, yeah.

Jim Jansen 43:44

Say, say that again. 'cause that's like so obvious, but so not obvious.

Jodi Phillips 43:49

Yeah. You can only start as many small groups as you have leaders to start them. Right? So there's this idea of like, we're gonna be a small group parish, so every person's gonna have the opportunity to join a small group. Well, if you only have four small group leaders and you have a thousand people that's actually four very large groups of 250 people.

Whitney Bradley 44:08

Or you just have four very small, small groups.

Jim Jansen 44:10

Which we laugh, but like that happens. We've seen a lot of parishes really set back their small group movements. By having a Sunday sign up. Yeah. And they're like, oh no, we dot have the leaders to be.

Whitney Bradley 44:22

Everybody's a consumer and nobody's a leader.

Jim Jansen 44:24

Yes.

Jodi Phillips 44:25

But I would, I would ask, I, when I, why I put this in the space of discernment, is that like if the Lord's really convicted you. And your team that no, we want a movement here. He's tilling the soil. There's this desire for growth. My guess is the leaders are there and you just don't know it.

Jim Jansen 44:45

Well, and And they don't know it.

Jodi Phillips 44:47

Yeah.

Jim Jansen 44:47

So this is, you know, so if you find yourself like, oh crap, we, we just did a big sign up and now we have 200 people signed up for small groups and we only have like, that'd be incredible. Well, yeah, and we only have three or four leaders. Some of the people who signed up with a simple invitation and just like a simple equipping can totally lead the group.

Jodi Phillips 45:07

So I have done this with my evangelization coordinator. Like he'll have a list and then we'll just look at the list and, and sometimes we've done this in prayer and sometimes we've just done it in conversation. I'm like, oh, what about this person? Here's what I know about this person. Let's look like, here's a gift I think this person has that's been untapped. Just start thinking about people you haven't thought about and take, oh, you know what? Let's think about our altar society. Who's untapped for mission.

Let's take a list into the chapel and just ask Jesus, like, pray over it. Whatcha are doing?

Whitney Bradley 45:35

Yeah, pray over that list, but also

Jodi Phillips 45:37

Who have I not thought of.

Whitney Bradley 45:37

Also, don't set the bar too high for these people. I think another thing that we do when we're thinking of potential future leaders is we're expecting them to be where we're at or even farther ahead. And it's like you can't do that. You're never gonna have new leaders. And also that's what accompaniment's for, right? You can start with something very low bar. I've got, I've got a leader who's like, look, they come to Mass every Sunday and they're friendly.

Jim Jansen 46:03

Yeah. Right.

Whitney Bradley 46:03

That's her low bar. And she's like, but I'm confident that I can walk with them. And that's all she needs.

Jim Jansen 46:08

Right? Yeah. For some people they are very well-formed. They've been super well catechized, and they're capable of leading a more complicated or difficult to lead. Small group and for others it's like, I can hit play. Yes. And it's like, great, that's all we need is like just hit play and then say, Hey guys, what'd you think? You know? But, but that's part of why this support system and structure, Jodi, that you were talking about earlier, is so essential because you have to discern. You don't wanna. Disqualify someone from getting started because they're not ready for the more advanced content or to facilitate that more advanced content.

You don't wanna disqualify them and you don't wanna prematurely put them in that position. Like you, you have to kind of match, make the call the mission, again, we don't wanna overly con control it, but at least as people are getting started, they, they need sometimes just a little bit of help.

Whitney Bradley 47:00

Mm-hmm. Can I also, another thing to make explicit the discernment. If, if we haven't made this clear is less about which materials to use mm-hmm. And more about which people.

Jim Jansen 47:11

Yes. Yeah. No, thank you, Whitney. That's huge. And we do have, for those of you who are like, but I really don't know what the materials are. We we're gonna link to a, a cool resource called Options for a Faith Formation. It's hyperlinked, so it'll go through all the different options of ascension press form.org, seeking truth, focus materials, on and on and on. There's a lot of great options there. And it's probably worth saying there are, I don't know where we fit this in, but now's a good time. Like there are at least two that we know of.

Two organizations that can help with faith formation, that you can hire them. So focus, uh, fellowship of Catholic University students has parish missionaries that you can hire. The Evangelical Catholic that you can hire someone to train your staff or your point person to be the facilitator so that you can get small groups started. So, and that's really helpful because the, the experience that, that they bring just the man hours is. A huge gift. I think part of the, the challenge for, for many of our parishes is we just don't have people who've experienced running small group movements, and we just don't have people who have the bandwidth to do it.

And if you have financial resources, don't let the ship go down without spending money on like hiring a person or help of a, of an outside group like this that can help you get something started. Amen. Okay. I story time, I just wanna give you guys a chance to tell some stories, give some shout outs. 'cause we've been blessed to see a ton of places do faith formation. Well, you guys jump in however you, you want here, but there's a, there's a lot of stories that we wanna give shout outs to.

Andy Dejka 48:48

I know St. Gerald has been working on, uh, discipleship Quads, um, about a dozen quads, I think right now. And Discipleship Quad is just, um, a group of four people that are committed to growing together in the habits of discipleship. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's, there's different materials that people use. Franciscan has a great, um, like one year. Quad process. That's really fantastic.

Jim Jansen 49:07

And they're really very precise. About four people. There's a reason for that. So no one can hide in that group. 'cause sometimes small groups are like, yeah, it's anywhere from six to 12. It's like, no. Like their quads are very specific about four.

Andy Dejka 49:22

Right. So you can really get to a depth in people's discipleship. Yeah. Yeah. And so that, that's been exciting to see that happen at, at St. Joe's. And I know they're planning to, to grow those, those quads. They really have to fo you really have to focus on the health, right? You can't just run ahead. Mm-hmm. Because we've got so many people that need to be in quads. But like we were saying earlier, if if we don't have the leaders Yeah. Can't, can't expand. Um, so that, that's one exciting thing. And then I think at St. We Loss, there's been a really exciting small groups movement that's been shepherded by a couple other leaders and they're really working on the support structures for all for the small group leaders right now.

Jodi Phillips 49:57

I think St. Francis Cabrini and um, St. Charles Gourmet, both have done a really excellent job of using small groups in kind of, they've made their own material. Right. Like there's, so there's a unifying factor too, and like this is, and you see this in a lot of evangelical churches in

Jim Jansen 50:14

Saint Columbkille, similarly, it's done the same thing. Like they will record their own stuff and then put it out for their groups. Yeah. You see groups.

Jodi Phillips 50:21

Yeah,, and like we used to call them when I was, when I was in evangelical, we used to call them life groups, right? So like we're all kind of talking about the sermon of the week.

Jim Jansen 50:29

And they're in homes, usually a meal.

Whitney Bradley 50:31

Doing life together.

Jodi Phillips 50:32

Doing life together. So it's kind of that they call 'em community groups. But yeah, all three of those parishes and, and I think. Cabrini's been doing it the longest and, and has seen pretty substantial growth as mm-hmm. As the groups, they've, as they've really had to go down a tier and say like, we need you to step up because we have more people who want this, which is, is a sign of health.

Jim Jansen 50:53

Yeah. And I would highlight, I. Two things very impressive about some of these small group movements. I'm thinking Cabrini and Columbia Hill is that they're pretty much year round. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and seasonal is a great way to get started. 'cause people tend to, they get a taste, they say yes before they know what it is, and then they want it year round. But they have year round movements established. Mm-hmm. And I think part of the key is they really leaned into conversion, their conversion moment. Both of them have used Alpha for many years, has created a huge pool of people who are hungry for community and for deeper formation in the faith.

Jodi Phillips 51:30

Yeah. Yeah. And Charles Borromeo is also year round as well.

Jim Jansen 51:33

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. That's awesome. And you know, it's probably worth actually, uh, Norfolk, but the, uh, the Lampstand initiative, we were just, many of us were just recently out there, got to witness. A revival conference that they held, and they were fantastic. It felt like every other announcement in a good way was like, and if you'd like to continue this adventure, get involved in one of our small groups, uh, the Lamp Sand Initiative helps teach various forms of prayer. Mm-hmm. You know, a RR Lexio, Davina, uh, adoration rosary. I mean, it's just, it's a beautiful, very unique.

Like small group content, and it's been very powerful for them.

Jodi Phillips 52:11

Which is, is, you know, we talked about that a little bit. How often small groups and faith formation will just talk about prayer instead of praying and, and really what they've done and, and the Lampson initiative has said like, no, all we're gonna do is form you in prayer for at least for a season, which I think is beautiful.

Jim Jansen 52:30

Yeah. Well, and I mean, to the degree that prayer is a skill and a habit, you learn habits. Not by talking about the habit, but by doing it. By doing it crazy.

Jodi Phillips 52:40

Practice them.

Jim Jansen 52:40

Okay. I just wanna, I mean our time has totally flown here. I just wanna give you a chance to maybe offer like some kind of last minute pro tips and warnings. 'cause there are some pitfalls, maybe mental hangups where people kind of trip over, they're trying to offer faith formation and they just forget something. They, they miss a step. What are your kind of last minute encouragement warnings. Watch out for this.

Jodi Phillips 53:06

I think a lot of this is just maybe some repeat of what we've, we've talked about over the course of our time tonight. Like tonight it's not night. It's whatever time it is that you're listening to this. Um, maybe it is night for you, but like, just thinking about like, I. Again, not assuming people know the gospel or have really received the gospel. Mm-hmm. Or if they've encountered the Lord that it's been recent. Right.

Jim Jansen 53:30

Like Right, Make it kerygmatic.

Jodi Phillips 53:31

Make it kerygmatic and, and really I would say with that is the pitfall would be like with your facilitators, make sure that they know and are living the gospel so deeply. That they can, that they can present the gospel.

Jim Jansen 53:46

Mm-hmm.

Jodi Phillips 53:46

On a dime.

Jim Jansen 53:47

That's huge. That's a high standard. But that is where we're, that's, I mean, that's what we want.

Whitney Bradley 53:51

And you can get, if you're accompanying them, you can get them there.

Jodi Phillips 53:53

Yeah. So it, it's not.

Jim Jansen 53:55

They may not not start there.

Whitney Bradley 53:56

Yeah.

Jodi Phillips 53:56

Yeah.

Jim Jansen 53:56

But that's the, that's the ideal. Yeah. Which is a real attainable ideal. It's not like, yeah. It's ideal. Like, you know, only 1% are gonna be not even 1%. No, I think not. You know, one, 1% of 1% will be canonized. So it's like, no, everybody can learn how to share the good news. In their story.

Andy Dejka 54:12

Think another maybe pitfall is just the temptation to try to get everybody formed at once with a temptation to start big. Mm-hmm. Right? Just to offer big events. Big, big classes, instead of forming the leaders, investing in leaders, and starting small. Because I really think that can lead to kind of this consumer mentality. Mm-hmm. Right. We have parishes that get into kind of a codependent cycle almost. Right. Where the parish just keeps providing new formation opportunities for the same 20 people that are stalled out in their faith. Wow. Yeah. And so we need to like lead that towards a conversion moment, right.

A secondary conversion moment.

Jim Jansen 54:49

Mm-hmm.

Andy Dejka 54:49

The missionary conversion.

Jim Jansen 54:51

Yeah. That's really good. I'm sorry, I don't wanna laugh, but it's like, Ooh, that's too close to home. Yeah, it's like, ouch. I laugh 'cause it hurts.

Jodi Phillips 55:01

Uh,

Jim Jansen 55:01

I mean, I would say for me it's the prayer piece feels like we, we often remember to catechize and form people on everything but prayer and, and I, I don't know, I kind of think prayer matters. Anybody wanna fight me on that?

Jodi Phillips 55:17

Not today.

Whitney Bradley 55:18

No.

Jim Jansen 55:18

Okay, good.

Whitney Bradley 55:19

Since Jim took mine, um, I'll just say, just get started.

Jim Jansen 55:22

Yeah.

Whitney Bradley 55:22

Don't let your fears or the unknown, like if you don't have everything all worked out, uh, stop you. You'll, you'll grow as you go. So go.

Jim Jansen 55:32

Okay. That's awesome. Guys, thank you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for all the work. I mean, this is, this is Born of experience and countless conversations both as missionary disciples and Formators trying to provide this, but also now as coaches helping other parishes, uh, through the discernment process. If you would like to talk to one of us, you're welcome to continue the conversation in the chat [email protected].

We're gonna link to some, uh, helpful resources, options for faith formation. Lots of good stuff there. Just kind of lays out different options for each, each of the key pillars of the catechism, the, the content there. Uh, you can call us at the chancery. We'd love to continue the conversation. I. Jodi, Andy Whitney, thank you for being with us.

Andy Dejka 56:19

You are welcome. Yeah, it's been fun.

Jim Jansen 56:20

Alright everybody. You know somebody who needs to hear this, so when you are at a safe place where you can use your hands and not be distracted from walking the dog or driving the car, you send this out to someone who needs it. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to Thep Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.